Transcript of All Things Episode 44: All the Qs in My Inbox: BLM, CRT, Defunding the Police, the Gospel, and More

I want to share with you the questions that I keep getting via text, WhatsApp, and email. I have gotten tons of questions over the past couple of weeks from people who are in my life physically and from people who are overseas. They are asking me to help them think through what is going on the United States right now, especially as it pertains to issues of racial disunity and racial reconciliation. 

I’ll go through six questions that I have gotten repeatedly over the last several of weeks. And then I’ll go through four exhortations or pieces of encouragement for you and for me, as Christians in the United States. 

1. Can Christians Say, ‘Black Lives Matter’ (BLM)?

You probably know by now that BLM, the organization, is actually a foundation. According to Christian blogger Natasha Crain, they have a statement of beliefs that do not align with biblical Christianity. There are significant gaps between BLM and the Bible. 

The organization BLM focuses on centering transgenderism; dismantling cisgender structures; lifting up the voices of black trans women; and pushing back on the nuclear family, advocating instead for children to belong to a community of support. 

From what I can tell from their statement of belief, as well as from an article by black Christian writer and speaker Ryan Bomberger, who founded The Radiance Foundation, the organization BLM does not emphasize reconciliation or unity, which would be championed by the Bible and the gospel. 

Responding to the Organization

As an organization, as a foundation, I would say that Black Lives Matter has some problems. If you are a Christian who wants to uphold the Word of God, there are going to be some major differences.

My encouragement to you, as a follower of Christ and as a biblical Christian, is this: You do not need to donate to the foundation. You do not need to join a chapter or protest. You do not need to sign a petition. 

Reclaiming the Truth

But what I do want to say is that the phrase Black lives matter should be said without shame and without hesitation by every Christian in every country. As Preston Perry said earlier this week, “I don’t know the person or people who founded the BLM organization, but I do know that saying ‘Black lives matter’ is a Christian worldview, though. Christians are not borrowing this slogan from the world. The world borrowed this truth from the Christian worldview.” 

I could not agree with Preston Perry more on that. The phrase Black lives matter — that is biblical. That comes out of the biblical worldview. That is the imago Dei. That is Genesis. “Black lives matter” is something that all Christians should be able to say without shame and without hesitation. 

My belief is that Christians should take the phrase back. We should say it loudly. We should say it without hesitation. Yes, by all means, Christians — let’s say the phrase Black lives matter. 

2. Can Christians Embrace Critical Race Theory (CRT)?

Now, I have to be honest. Over the last few years, personally I have avoided spending much time studying CRT. Many Christian women have asked me to study it and discuss it with them, and I have avoided doing that. 

I have instead preferred to pursue what the Bible has to say about race, personhood, and justice, as well as to build a strong, theological, biblical understanding of these concepts. I haven’t used a social theory to understand them, so I don’t have a ton of time and experience studying CRT. 

Critical Race Theory: A Brief Explanation

But I have dove into CRT in the past couple of weeks, and here’s what I have to report: “Critical race theory” is a framework, and “critical theory” is the larger framework from which CRT comes. In other words, critical theory is the root from which critical race theory stems. 

CRT seeks to explain the world in terms of oppressor and oppressed — that is, those who are doing the oppressing and those who are oppressed. So, CRT is a framework that looks at the world through this lens. 

Differing Opinions

Many conservative Christians are concerned because people seem to be embracing it as more than a framework. Instead of a lens through which people may view life, CRT tends to be used as an ideology or a system that works to solve the current issues in our nation. CRT is definitely void of the gospel, and it does not seek the Christian goal of unity. 

Honestly, my opinion after studying it is that it may have some helpful aspects. I have a background in anthropology and social sciences, so I like social theories. I think they can be helpful. However, I understand the hesitations of the many conservative Christians who do not want to dive headlong into CRT. I would never place CRT above a biblical worldview and the biblical narrative. 

Only One Story Satisfies

The biblical narrative does an excellent job of explaining all of life. There’s the meta-narrative of scripture: You are I were created. Then, the fall happened, and sin entered the world. Jesus came to redeem us, and we look forward to the consummation or restoration of all creation when God institutes the new heavens and the new earth.   

That’s the biblical meta-narrative. And because you and I were created by our God who gave us his Word, that meta-narrative, that explanation, will be far more satisfactory, far more helpful, far more redemptive, and far more soul-satisfying than critical race theory. 

We are here in the stage of redemption. Jesus has already come, but he hasn’t come back yet. He has brought redemption, but we are not yet at restoration. That’s why my purpose for living here — in this space and in this time — is to love God, to give him glory, to enjoy him, to share his love with others, to preach the gospel, and to live in a way that truthfully projects my Creator and his love for all people.

Looking at Our Lenses

If critical race theory is a huge threat to your church or to you personally, then your church or you yourself may not have done the work to embrace a biblical worldview of creation, the fall, the imago Dei, redemption, and restoration. The biblical worldview is always going to be more satisfying, more winsome, more helpful, than a social theory is going to be. 

On the flip side, if you find yourself really wanting to dive headlong into CRT, then my encouragement to you is to dive headlong likewise into the biblical frameworks for understanding personhood, justice, love, and compassion, as well as what these things might look like for us in 2020. 

Personally, I don’t think it’s necessary to go so far as to say that anyone who is employing CRT in any way is outside of God’s will, that CRT is anti-Bible, or that it’s “super leftist.” I know that there are some strong concerns in the conservative Christian community, and I get that.

But back in 2019, even the Southern Baptist Convention had a resolution saying that CRT and even intersectionality can be helpful, in some ways, as a lens. I have to say, that’s where I land as well: CRT can be a helpful lens. 

3. Isn’t It Enough to Just Preach the Gospel?

Some of you are thinking, “Jen, we’re kinda tired of hearing you talk about these social issues. Can you just preach the gospel?” Now, I feel like most of that feedback comes from a very good place. These issues can be so overwhelming and complicated, which is why some say, “There’s so much suffering and pain here. Can’t the gospel just be the one to respond? We’re never going to answer these questions or have healing without the gospel.” 

I don’t disagree with that, but I think some of this pushback may be coming from a fearful place. I think Christians are feeling threatened, worried that worldly ideas are going to infiltrate the church in such a way that Christians are going to give themselves over to worldly movements. It’s sort of a protectionist mentality, which seems to say, “No, keep all of those ideas outside of the church. We’re going to get ourselves together in this ‘holy huddle’ and just preach the gospel.”

Blood-Bought, Christlike Pursuits 

If you have followed me for long, if you attend my church, if you have read my writings or my book — you know that I champion the gospel above all things. I appreciate an allegiance to the gospel first and foremost because I stand there, too. I totally believe that Jesus Christ is the one true hope of the world. 

But to work toward justice here and now is not to nullify the gospel or to say that the gospel is not ultimately the answer. I encourage you to go back and listen to All Things episode 43, in which I say that the gospel actually moves us to act. 

Because we have been loved much, we too must love much. Because Jesus descended to this earth and humbled himself to the point of death on the cross, rescuing you and me, we too must seek to humble ourselves in order to bring redemption and compassion and help to a hurting world. 

My opinion is that the gospel requires you and I, who are saved by Jesus, to move in this world in a way that brings justice and restoration to the here and now. 

Fighting Sin Requires a Spiritual Armory  

You know, you never hear of this “just preach the gospel” mentality when it comes to other sin issues. You never hear people saying “just preach the gospel” when it comes to abortion or orphan care. No one says, “You know what, to alleviate poverty and world hunger, we’re just going to preach the gospel, and to get rid of pornography or adultery or failing marriages we’re just going to preach the gospel.”

No. We never say that because the gospel compels us to look for tangible ways here and now to bring healing, just as Jesus prayed: “Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven” (Matthew 6:10). 

So, no: I don’t think we should “just preach the gospel” at racial disunity in our country. The gospel compels us towards the hurt and towards those who are being treated unjustly that we might bring God’s restoration and justice to those situations. 

4. Should the Police Be Defunded?

As Christians, we acknowledge that there are good and evil in this world. It is good and right to have laws and government in place for the good of the people, for the thriving of the people, for shalom, for there to be peace in our culture. 

As Christians, we understand also that individuals commit sins and crime and that some kind of justice is required for that individual when he or she transgresses our society in some way. We know we have got to protect society — while also seeking the good of the criminal, while also seeking the good of the victim. 

As Christians, we readily confess that sin is pervasive. We agree that all have fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). All sin; no one seeks good (Romans 3:10–11). That sin is pervasive. 

When Sin Persists, Christians Reform

That’s why we see sin so clearly in the institutions present in our culture. There are sinful practices, standards, rules, and even laws at play in our nation right now. We can freely acknowledge that so many systems and institutions need to be reformed. 

Christians often cry for reform in lower and higher education, in healthcare, in taxes. There are all these ways that we want various institutions to be reformed. It makes sense, then, that if we see injustice in our nation’s law enforcement, we would be in favor of reform there. 

Our law enforcement is another institution where we can say honestly that sin exists. If, then, there is a need for reform, we should look for reform. Now, notice: I am not saying “defund.” Defunding the police is a different conversation. Reforming the police is a conversation that I think we can have. 

Respect Should Not Silence

So many conservation Christians are ardently pro-law enforcement and pro-military. It’s sort of patriotic: “If I am pro-law enforcement, then I am patriotic.” I get that. My husband and I ministered to the military community for a decade. My son-in-law now serves in the military. Some of our dearest friends and even members at our church are in law enforcement, and I’m so grateful to the Lord for our law enforcement, for our police, and for our military. 

I have the highest respect for them, but it’s not wrong, personal, or unkind to say, “Hey, if if there is injustice, then we need reform.” I think we can look at law enforcement across the nation and admit objectively that reform is probably necessary in many cities, in many municipalities, in many places across the country.

Two Case Studies Following the Death of Mike Brown

Just one example of this is the death of Mike Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, in 2014. There were two studies that the Department of Justice conducted after his death. The first study looked at his specific death to see if the officers were in the wrong when Mike Brown was killed. It found that the officer who killed Mike Brown was not in the wrong. The study exonerated him. He was found innocent in that specific killing. 

But there was a second Department of Justice report that came out at the same time, which almost nobody talks or hears about. It found that the police in Ferguson had a history of antagonizing the community. They had a history of purposefully going after people to issue various tickets in order to raise money, in order to raise the funding, for that particular police precinct or department. 

Now there was documented, objective evidence from the Department of Justice that the police force in Ferguson had been antagonizing, for years, the people of Ferguson, Missouri. 

Those are two different reports: one was was heard and broadcast widely while the other was not. Many communities are just like Ferguson. People are upset because they have been mistreated in many other ways: not just police brutality, as in the murder of George Floyd, but in a million other, smaller, antagonistic ways. Communities are feeling that kind of mistreatment and oppression from their police forces. 

‘Internal’ Is Not a Synonym for ‘Objective’

Again, this is not the case with every cop, every city, and every municipality, but this is a consistent finding across the country. That’s why it is okay for Christians to say, “That’s not right. Communities should not be antagonized by their police force. Police are there to protect and to serve, and if that is not happening, then we should correct it.”

We know that there are various boards and unions that police officers can appeal to if a complaint is formed against them. We know that the way that police officers investigate complaints against one another is to investigate it themselves. It’s an internal investigation process. If there is a complaint made against one officer, another officer follows up on it. 

There’s a culture of not wanting to “tattle” on each other. There’s a culture that says, “Well, I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt because, later on, I want you to give me the benefit of the doubt.”

I think that we can all say objectively that the boards and police unions in place to investigate complaints fall short from what we might think of as a “good” standard of justice. I think we can agree that reform would be helpful here. Again, this is the same thing that we say about so many other unions and so many other institutions. I don’t think that it’s un-American, unpatriotic, or unhelpful to seek justice in these areas. 

Complaints Surrounding the Murder of George Floyd

With the George Floyd murder Derek Chauvin, the officer who killed him, had seventeen complaints against him the day that he arrested and killed George Floyd. Seventeen complaints! And the current head of the police union in Minneapolis — he has twenty-nine complaints against him.

Those complaints, by the way, are hidden from public view. We cannot just go and see what those complaints are. The reality is, there are complaints against them. This isn’t to say that all cops have to be perfect all the time, but we can look at this situation and say, “You know what, Derek Chauvin should not have been practicing that day. He should not have been on the clock. He should not have been in the position that he was in.”

I think this might be, friends, a blindspot that we have in the conservative Christian community because we want to be patriotic and to uphold law enforcement and military. That instinct is good and right; those are my people, too. I have respect and gratitude towards them.

I still think this issue is a blindspot for us. We somehow feel that we are unpatriotic if we say, “Some reform would be helpful.” What I know to be true is that the cops who are on the street to truly serve and to truly protect, the ones who want to influence for good, the ones moving into communities in a way that is redemptive and helpful, the ones seeking the true welfare of the people — I know that those cops want reform, too. I know that they did not want Derek Chauvin on the clock that day. 

Protestants Protest; Reformers Reform

It’s okay for all of us to come together and say, “Hey, I think reform is needed here.” What is more, I think it’s kind of strange that Protestants push back against protesting. That is our name: we are Protest-ants because we protest-ed. 

Not only are we Protestants, but we have a Reform-ed theology. Praise God that there were Reformers who reformed our theology, who looked at the Catholic church and said, “Hey, we need to make some adjustments here because these things are not true. We want a moot. We are going to protest and to reform.”

Protesting and reforming is a part of who we are, so I don’t think a priori we should reject protesting or reformation. 

5. Aren’t Emotions Untrustworthy?

Shouldn’t we only be using statistics and data? The reality is, statistics don’t say everything, and statistics can say anything. As quickly as you send me an article about how there are no instances of racial bias among police or in government, I can send you an article back that claims there most definitely is. 

Statistics are absolutely useful. I use them all the time on this podcast. I use them all the time in my writing. They influence the way I think about things. There absolutely is a place for them.

The reality is, the pool that research is drawn from can be skewed and limited. Whoever is doing the research probably has an agenda. Statistics generally cover things like crime, police reports, or police brutality. These are incidents that are measured in a tangible way after they have happened. 

Experience Escapes Measuring Cups

What cannot be measured is experience. What is not measured is what so many of our black friends are telling us about now, in this moment. We are hearing stories about being unjustly pulled over or unjustly handcuffed or unjustly followed in the store or unjustly asked to leave the store. 

Think also of the biracial couple, in which the white spouse is treated one way while the black spouse is treated another way. Our black friends have to carry themselves in different ways in certain neighborhoods and communities.

Statistics tell an incomplete story because they are only telling the story of the crimes that have been committed or the brutality that has already taken place. Statistics cannot relay the experiences of our black friends that occur a hundred times a day in a hundred different ways. So, statistics are incomplete. We need to go beyond the data. 

Recipes Get Handed Down

But my plea to you and to me is that we would go beyond the statistics, that we would look at the context, the situation, and the history that brings about the statistics. Here are some questions we can ask ourselves: 

• Why are there certain kinds of neighborhoods? 

• What is the atmosphere in that neighborhood? 

• What is the history behind that neighborhood? 

• What is the redlining that took place? 

• What has happened historically, in that community, that has created the statistics that are coming out of that community?

This is the place where we need stories. This is the place where we need to pause and to listen and to seek to understand the experiences of the black community. Stories tell us more than the statistics. 

God-Given Emotions 

Not only that, but I think this pushback on emotion is so strange because emotions are from God. God gives us emotions. Emotions are throughout the Scriptures. We see the psalmist weeping, wailing, and downcast. There is a whole book called “Lamentations.” We see Jesus grieving. We see Jesus angry. We see that same thing from the apostles. 

Emotions are good. It’s okay to embrace the emotions of the moment. We need the statistics, the stories, and the emotions. There’s room for them all. 

6. Can’t We Just Listen to That One Black Speaker Who Really ‘Gets It’?

Referring me to a handful of the same black podcasters or commentators, some of my white friends are saying, “Can’t you just listen to this one? This one really gets it.” 

Of course, everyone is welcome to his or her own perspective. Everyone is welcome to the table, especially if the person bears a minority voice. I want to be sensitive enough in this moment to say, “What is it that this person has to say? What is the perspective that this person wants to share?”

Listen to What the Majority of Minority Voices Say

But you and I need to ask the question, If there are only a few that say the same thing, but the vast majority of black voices out there are saying something different, why is that?

It takes effort to scroll past the vast majority of voices who are rehearsing similar narratives, similar stories, and similar perspectives. You have to work to pull out the few that happen to confirm the bias or the story or the thoughts that you already had. 

Now, majority opinions are not everything; some majority opinions can be wrong. But it’s worth understanding why the majority of our black brothers and sisters share narratives and stories. 

Confirmation Bias: We Cling to the Data That Validates Our Perspective

I am seeing too many white conservation Christians championing just a couple of voices within the black Christian community or even just within the black conservative Christian community. These voices happen to be saying things like this: “You know what, there isn’t any racism;” “The black community is the problem. It’s not the police who are the problem;” or “It’s wrong or anti-gospel to engage in justice work on behalf of the black community.”

I’m hearing this message from just a few black voices. It concerns me that we are scrolling past the thousands of other voices that are saying something very different. Let’s be careful not to prize or to champion this one person who “gets it” even though the majority is saying something else. Again, the majority is not everything, but it is something. 

Four Exhortations for You and for Me

Here’s how I want to close: I want to plead with the church and myself. I want us to constantly remind ourselves of these four things. 

1. Racism is a legitimate issue.

If you don’t think that racism is a legitimate issue in 2020, my exhortation to you is, Would you please pause, pray, and really consider the black voices in our community and in our nation? If you don’t have any black friends, would you please turn to literature, to podcasts, to articles, or to some historical works? 

I’m actually hosting a bookclub online and in person, in which we will read The Warmth of Other Suns. I love that book because it tells the story of the history of African Americans in our nation so beautifully. It is well researched: fifteen years of research went into this book. It won the Pulitzer Prize. It tells story after story of the black American experience, and I want to share that with my community in order for us to listen to and learn from what that experience was like. 

My plea to you, if you think that racism is a thing of the past, is to listen. If you think that’s true, you are not listening. My exhortation is, Would you listen? Would you join my bookclub? Read this book with me. Listen to these stories. 

2. As Christians, we cannot stay silent and still. 

This is a moment in time where you and I cannot stay silent. We cannot stay still. When we don’t do something, when we don’t take action in a moment like this, we miss out on a cultural moment to really bear witness to our God in heaven who is good, kind, and creative; who made man in his image; who made all these beautiful different skin colors; who appointed that we live here and now. 

When you and I don’t take action in moments like this, the hollow and deceptive philosophies of this world (Colossians 2:8) become more winsome, more attractive, to both believers and unbelievers alike. If you opt out now, then you better believe that people who are watching you are going to look elsewhere for answers. 

You and I can step into this moment and say, “You know what, the Bible shows us how to think about and how to respond to these things. The God of the universe, the God who made black skin and white skin, the God who wants to bring justice and righteousness for all who are oppressed — he has something to say to this moment.” You and I can also stand on sidelines, wringing our hands, and say, “I don’t know if I can join in.” 

How to Back Away

I think it kind of reminds some Christians of the environmental movement. About that movement, many Christians think, “You know, a lot of secular, atheist, New Age hippies are environmentalists. So I can’t be one. I can’t be an environmentalist.”

No! The reality is, we have a Creator who made the earth. We worship him, this Creator. We should be the most involved in creation-care. We should be the best environmentalists because we know the Creator. 

It’s like that with this particular situation. You and I should be compelled by the Maker of heaven and earth; the God who knit together in our mothers’ wombs these beautiful skin tones (Psalm 139:13); the God who is sovereign and just even over this cultural moment; the God who wants to right every wrong. You and I have got to dive in there.

Might Silence Ruin Our Witness?

I fear, Christian friends, that we are ruining our witness by standing off to the side, wringing our hands, and saying, “I don’t know if I can join in because of this, that, or the other theory, because of this, that, or the other organization or foundation.” 

No. Be compelled by your Creator and your Savior to move towards injustice and to bring justice; to move towards oppression and to bring love; to move towards the hurting and to bring healing. This is not the moment to be quiet. This is not the moment to stay away and to be silent because you are so worried about how you are going to be perceived. 

Do you know how you are going to be perceived if you don’t dive in now? You are going to be perceived as someone who doesn’t care, as someone who is only concerned about your wellbeing, your neighborhood, your school, your livelihood, your community. You are going to be perceived as someone who is far-off, who stands far away from suffering. That’s not who we are called to be as Christians. My admonishment to you and to me is to dive in. 

3. Let’s give each other a lot of grace.

The action that I take is going to look different than the action that you take. You are going to use a hashtag that I might not use. You might go to a protest that I might not go to, or I might go to a protest that you might not go to. 

We are going to do this in different ways. Maybe you’re going to start by reading some books, by joining some online communities, by trying to cultivate some friendships with people that don’t look like you or with people who are not in your socioeconomic bracket. The work is going to look different; the action is going to look different.

It’s here where I think Christians should give each other a lot of grace. It’s not okay to say, “You’re only a Bible-believing Christian if you do it my way.” I think that not taking action is not an option, but let’s give grace to each other in regards to what that action might look like. There is not a single, exactly right way to this, and it’s not fair to judge one another’s maturity based on our work in this moment. 

4. We are exiles.

The apostle Peter calls Christians “exiles” (1 Peter 1:1). This is not our home. If you feel like you don’t fit in right now — praise the Lord, because you shouldn’t fit in right now. You and I do not put our hope in a political figure. We do not put our hope in a political party. 

We put our hope in the risen Christ, and in this moment that is very dark in our nation, we are called to “shine as lights in the world,” as Paul put it (Philippians 2:15). We are called to bring grace and truth. We are called to bear witness in this moment. So if you feel like an exile, that’s a good thing. 

If you feel tempted to run into a corner, where everything is nice and tidy, where things can be analyzed in a black and white sort of way, my exhortation to you is, Don’t run into the corner. Don’t run to any corner. 

There is room for nuance and for care in the way that we are approaching these issues. We don’t have to say that we are “All black lives” or “All blue lives,” that we “reject CRT” or “embrace only the gospel.” There are all these little camps that we want to run to and hide in because they are “safe” for us: they allow us to be really dogmatic and cut and dried about these issues. 

I just don’t think that’s the way of Jesus in this moment. The gospel is one of paradox. The Christian life is one of paradox, so my exhortation to you and to me is to indeed take action, as well as to know that, no, this is not our home, and it is not going to feel like it. 

Special thanks to my friend and fellow writer Tanner Swanson for this transcription.

All Things Episode 44 can be found here, on iTunes, Stitcher, and Google Podcasts.